Cosmetic WeBlog

The reason Dupont did the follow up is because they are good stewards
of their chemicals. Glycolic acid (70%) is not something you want to
play with.
Like many people, I also thought that others were responsible for
making me feel good or bad. Then I discoved that I was taught to
think this way.
I soon realized that I was the one who created my own feelings. And
if that is so, then I realized that I had to take responsibility for
those feelings.
It all a matter of attitude.

Two questions
1. I have tried twice to down the HLB handbook in pdf and word and can't get
either to work. Can anyone help me?
2. There are many people out there touting their all "natural preservatives" do
you know of any specific studies that I could print out that tells of their
ineffectiveness?
Thanks
DeAnna

Wow, Jen, just those excerpts explain so much of the health-related problems
with cow's milk. I knew my kids, most relatives on mom's side, and I are
"sensitive" to it in ways not obvious to most people, but now know more about
what it does to us (more family health history comes to mind). Thanks for
the data. I'll check out that link, too.
- Katie

In a message dated 1/30/2003 11:21:58 PM Central Standard Time,
jenwelch@... writes:
LOL Jen, Boy did I get THAT mixed up. Well, thank you for explaining again,
and thanks for the link you sent along. I think I have it now....:))
Lisa

<<< Does anyone know if alpha-hydroxy acids would survive saponification?
thanks,
Jenny
Jenny, AHA 's function is to eat away at dead skin to provide the face with
a more youthful look - to put it bluntly according to what Dermatology sites
say, which makes them drugs. Do you want your soap in that classification?
You can get the same effect (somewhat) by just putting in some exfolilation
ingredient. You have many to choose from: oats, corn meal, pumice and
poppyseeds....an not have to worry about your soap being seen as a drug
by the FDA.
Dee
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/HotSoapEtc
http://www.hpsoapbook.com

Lisa, here is a link to the USDA Nutrient Database for Standard Reference.
It is a wonderful tool for looking up nutritional information on any food
item. Just key in "soy milk" and "rice dream" (one at a time) and you'll
get a long table listing everything you might want to know about their
chemical constituents.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search_edit.pl
Goatsmilk and cow milk do not have lactic acid in them. Cheese made from
them does, as does spoiled milk.
HTH,
Jen

Joyce
I don't have much experience but here's some info from a couple of my books:
from "Milady's Skin Care & Cosmetic Ingredients Dictionary" - 2nd Edition
Lecithin - A natural emollient, emulsifier, antioxidant, and spreading
agent, lecithin is a hydrophilic ingredient that attracts water and acts
as a moisturizer. Generally obtained for cosmetic products from eggs
and soybeans, it is found in all living organizms.
and
Lecithin (hydrogenated) - an emulsifier
from "A Consumer's Dictionary of Cosmetic Ingredients" - 5th Edition
Lecithin - from the Greek, meaning "egge yolk." A natural antioxidant
and emmolient used in eye creams, lipsticks, liquid powders, hand creams
and lotions, soaps, and many other cosmetics. Also a natural emulsifier
and spreading ingredient. It is found in all living organisms, and is
frequently obtained from common egg yolk and soybeans for commercial
purposes. Egg yolk is 8-9% lecithin. Non toxic
and
Lecithin amide DEA - a reaction product of lecithin and diethanolamine
with ammonia. See Quaternary Ammonium Compounds.
Also, you can check through the archive files - see especially message #
7138 of 13915 that Maurice posted. There's not much more that I know
about it...
Gretchen

What bacteria? Fresh, store bought pasteurized whole milk should not have
bacteria in it.
Lisa, I said, in essence, that it was NOT akin to your skin, and that was in
reference to the claims made on the internet about goat milk soap, not whole
milk. Actually, the pH of most goat milk is about 6.7, slightly acidic, but
the pH of goat milk soaps is on a par with non-milk soaps. And, it is the
milkfat globules that are smaller in size, not the proteins.
According to: http://www.ams.usda.gov/standards/DBM_02-02-01.pdf the
milkfat in dry buttermilk must be no more than 4.5% and titratable acidity
must be between 0.10% and 0.18%
You're welcome!
Jen

I have made some "incredible" face cream. In only 3 weeks after using it
sparingly, I have had people ask me if I am sneaking out of my house at midnight
for "botox" treatments.
Question:
My cream is great. I don't have to make outrageous claims in order for it to
sell. I have researched and used the proper "type" and "amount" of preservative.
We would like to market my face cream. I will make no claims. Just simply "the
safety of this product has not been determined".
Cool?
Is that it?
JP

Does anyone know if alpha-hydroxy acids would survive saponification?
thanks,
Jenny

Had anybody used Soymilk or a ricemilk (don't know what these
actually are but you can get them at a wholefood store)in their
products? So goatsmilk and cowsmilk have lactose and lactic acid
correct? Anybody know what soy or rice have in them?
I hope I'm not irritating anyone with these questions, but I dont'
know who better to ask.
TIA
Lisa

Hi guys:)
I just bought some seaweed extract in a garage sale. I love new things to
play with. Of course there was no spec sheet or applications...it was a
garage sale:)) I wanted to ask if any of you can tell me more about it and at
what rate you would use it in lotions etc....anybody add it to soap? I would
appreciate some feedback. You can just email be privately at this address so
as not to clog up the list...
TIA
Lisa

In a message dated 1/30/2003 4:38:13 PM Central Standard Time,
yhanley@... writes:
Maybe I am getting this backward. What do you think?
I just made some melts and used whole milk powder. I have used milk baths
made with goatsmilk and actually felt softer, but I didn't notice one way or
the other about the stuff using the whole milk. I've tried it a number of
ways in my bath products and I have to say I'm not all that impressed. Maybe
its just me, but I think in baths, goatsmilk powder is better.
I've never tried putting whole milk straight into the tub though, but I will
now lol...Gotta try it. If its pasturized, wouldn't that kill off some of the
bacteria?
I also tried making buttermilk soap. I didn't think it was so great. I liked
my goatsmilk soap as well - use both of them in liquid form and at 8oz per
pound of oils, no water. Maybe, (since buttermilk is richer in fats than
whole milk) with Jen saying the goatsmilk proteins are smaller and more "akin
to your skin" - (rhymes haha,..ahem...) that is a factor. Its pretty easy to
get buttermilk powder, and I'm wondering if anyone knows what the legal
requirements for fat content in a buttermilk powder are. (More stuff to play
with......at least I never get bored:))
Thanks Jen, Yoki and Katie on the info:)
Lisa

Angie,
I have only a little experience making lotions but I've combed all the
homecrafting formularies online and noticed that in these recipes the
polawax is -not- reduced when you add the stearic. I think the
reasoning is that stearic will add texture but it won't emulsify. You'd
still need the full amount of polawax to do that job. Until joining
this list, I had no idea of the chemistry behind these emulsions. I
considered polawax something like cornstarch: you whatever you need to
make your "gravy" thick enough. I think it's the prevailing
understanding among the homecrafters I've seen online. Stearic isn't
considered an emulsifier and seems to used the same way cetyl alcohol
is used in professional formulations.
Now that I'm learning about HLB and have started to work out my own
calculations, it's a wonder to me that these polawax lotions work at
all, since the HLBs can be so mismatched between oil phases and
emulsifiers. I can only guess that despite its "natural" HLB value,
polawax is particularly versatile and can adapt to a wide range of
required HLBs. (I've seen this feature touted on various manufacturers'
sites for other self-emulsifying ingredients.)
Speaking of HLB, can anyone tell me how to calculate the HLB for a
stearic/TEA emulsification system? I know the combination produces an
emulsifying soap, but I don't know its HLB nor how to manipulate the
proportions of the stearic and TEA to raise or lower that value.
Thanks alot,
Elaine

Actually, it is the milkfat globules that are smaller than those of cow
milk.
None of the differences between the two products makes it more akin to human
skin. There are a lot of web sites touting the benefits of goat milk soap
because it is "closer to the pH of human skin", but a review of our archives
will quickly disprove that notion. FWIW, many of the products (soap,
lotions, milk baths, etc.) I make are made with goat milk. I love it and the
products I make with it, especially my soaps. You can't beat them for
mildness, but I can't scientifically tell you why.
Here's a link to a paper that discusses the specific differences in goat
milk vs. cow milk better than I can:
http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/AgrEnv/ndd/goat/GOAT_MILK_VERSUS_COW_M
ILK.html
And here's a pertinent bit from that paper.
12 Fat
One of the more significant differences from cow milk is found in
the composition and structure of fat in goat milk. The average size of
goat milk fat globules is about 2 micrometers, as compared to 21/2 -
31/2 micrometers for cow milk fat. These smaller sized fat globules
provide a better dispersion, and a more homogeneous mixture of fat in
the milk. Research indicates that there is more involved to the
creaming ability of milk than merely physical size of the fat
globules.
It appears that their clustering is favored by the presence of an
agglutinin in milk which is lacking in goat milk, therefore creating a
poor creaming ability, especially at lower temperatures.
13 The natural homogenization of goat milk is, from a human health
standpoint, much better than the mechanically homogenized cow milk
product. It appears that when fat globules are forcibly broken up by
mechanical means, it allows an enzyme associated with milk fat, known
as xanthine oxidase to become free and penetrate the intestinal wall.
Once xanthine oxidase gets through the intestinal wall and into the
bloodstream, it is capable of creating scar damage to the heart and
arteries, which in turn may stimulate the body to release cholestrol
into the blood in an attempt to lay a protective fatty material on the
scarred areas. This can lead to arteriosclerosis. It should be noted
that this effect is not a problem with natural (unhomogenized) cow
milk. In unhomogenized milk this enzyme is normally excreted from the
body without much absorption.
14 Another significant difference from cow milk is the higher amount
of shorter-chain fatty acids in the milk fat of goats.
15 Furthermore, glycerol ethers are much higher in goat then in cow
milk which appears to be important for the nutrition of the nursing
newborn. Goat milk also has lower contents of orotic acid which can
be
significant in the prevention of fatty liver syndrome. However, the
membranes around fat globules in goat milk are more fragile which may
be related to their greater susceptibility to develop off-flavors than
cow milk.
Jen

You are absolutely correct!
Q. What are the ingredients in Perfection by Paradise Essential Moisturizer?
A. Purified water, Aloe Vera Gel, Shea Butter, Evening Primrose Oil, Rosehip
Oil, Apricot Oil, Glycerin, Hyaluronic Acid, Beta Glucan, Biosome Vitamin A+E,
Vitamin C, Citric
Acid, Lactic Acid, Retinol, Phyto Collagen, Green Tea Extract, Sea Kelp Extract,
Red Clover Extract, Wild Yam Extract, Essential Oils of Grapefruit, Orange,
Bulgarian Rose,
Sorbin Acid (Natural Preservative).
http://www.perfectioncream.com/perfection/3e39c24d0f34c8b72718d8be294206b1/UserT\
emplate/7
This is a bogus ingredient list. They are mixing oil and water with out an
emulsifier.
It's a SCAM!
Maurice

I am saying that lactic acid in milk has nothing to do with the fat content
of the milk, yes. As far as lactic acid content is concerned, the USDA
standard for allowable titratable acidity (percent lactic acid) is the same
(.15%) in both. I wasn't saying lactic acid, or the lack of it was what
made a milk bath good. I was saying it wasn't part of the equation.
According to the USDA, whole milk powder can be 28% milkfat, but non-fat
milk can be no more than 1.25% milkfat and that would make a difference in
the final product. The final product will be richer in milkfat when the
whole milk powder is used. But is it just the milk fat that makes a milk
bath feel good? I don't know, but I think there is more to it than that --
vitamins, minerals, proteins etc. may all play a part. To play devil's
advocate, two ounces of milk powder is the equivalent of 4 ounces of whole
milk. While I make goat milk powder milk baths, milk is only about 40% of my
particular recipe. If a customer is directed to add as much as 1/2 cup of
the product to a bath, they will still be adding only about 3.2 oz of whole
milk to it. I sell them, but I question whether there is much benefit in so
little milk in a full tub of water, other than a perceived benefit. It's
not the same as pouring a couple of cups of whole milk into the tub as Jan
noted.
BTW, in early times foods whose flavor or consistency came from lactic acid
production (cheese, pickles, sauerkraut) it was the natural bacteria in the
environment being introduced into the food (by fingers, utensils, or what
have you) that began the fermentation process resulting in the finished
product. By the time they milked enough mares to fill Cleopatra's bath with
the milk, chances are it was already teeming with bacteria at work breaking
down the lactose and making lactic acid. Just a poor attempt at cosmetic
humor. :)
Jen

I read a website for facial cremes -- "...high performance skin care cream
capable of penetrating deep into the skin's protective layer, infusing the
skin with nutrients, humectants and amino acids."
Ingredient list shows nothing special....BUT, to order you must agree to a
disclaimer...which, among other things, disclaims any implied warranty or
fitness for a particular purpose of the products advertised -- as well as
any liability for side effects, damages or injury arising from use of said
products.
This is a new one on me and my experience negotiating legal documents tells
me it won't hold water should someone want to contest it....but why on earth
would they take this approach?
Jan Flood oakridge@...
www.oakridgefarm.com

Hi Denise,
I got the same thing from Ashland Chemical. They said they do not ship to
residences for liability issues. Something like, if we were not home to be
there for the shipment and UPS or whoever left it on the porch a
neighborhood kid could get in it etc.. I am wondering if they are
experiencing a higher number of requests from home crafters/home based
businesses and just want to be on the safe side of the road.
About glycolic acid, I have purchased it in smaller retail amounts from
skincare institute. I can't remember their addy off the top of my head, but
you could probably get there by doing a search. If you can't find it, I
could dig out a receipt or something that may have it. Oh ya, the glycolic
acid is in a 10% solution.
Margaret
Natural Indulgences LLC
<snipped
understand safety issues and that this company has to cover themselves. So
who's the middleman?

In a message dated 1/30/03 11:42:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jenwelch@... writes:
Hi Jen,
That's a great question...and one that I am not sure about either. I believe
the numbers refer to the stearyl and the cetyl distribution, but don't know
for sure which is preferable. I'm adding this one too and have talked to
someone at Croda about it. They have the 50/40, 25/55, 75/10 and some others.
She said the 50/40 and the 25/55 would be preferable for our purposes. The
75/10 would be more of a pharmaceutical grade. That's the extent of my input
though...maybe the chemists can enlighten us?
Angie
The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care
Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality
at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

So you are saying Jen that the fat content in the milk has nothing to
do with lactic acid which is what makes a milk bath good? So if I am
understanding you correctly, non fat or whole milk, it should nto
make a difference?
Yoki

Interesting call I got this morning from Dupont (after I filled out an online
application for samples or information), where glycolic acid is manufactured.
They called Eastern time, (which I'm not) and caught me off guard as I was
getting the kids' breakfast. They started asking me if I was a "lab" or
residential address. Started asking about safety equipment that I use, the
facility I make my products in, etc. After telling them about the standard
safety equipment kept and used here for sodium hydroxide and other caustic
substances or substances which shouldn't be inhaled, she informed me that they
don't send samples or sell to residences.
UGH. Any other leads? I have no problem paying for samples and I understand
safety issues and that this company has to cover themselves. So who's the
middleman?
~Denise~

I am looking into carrying Cetearyl Alcohol. From what I have seen, it can be
ordered as:
Cetearyl Alcohol 70/30 NF
Cetearyl Alcohol 50/50 NF
Cetearyl Alcohol 30/70 NF
If I were to carry only one, which might be the best to carry and why?
Frequently, when I've seen it in formulations, it simply says its INCI name
cetearyl alcohol, so which blend was chosen is not readily apparent.
Thanks for any insight,
Jen

Jan,
The amount of titratable acidity (percent lactic acid) allowed in Whole Milk
Powders is governed by standards set by the US Dept. of Agriculture. It
varies depending on the product (non-fat milk, buttermilk, whole milk,
etc.). In the case of Whole Milk Powder, it cannot exceed 0.15%, which is
pretty insignificant. Lactic acid in milk is primarily a product of
microbial fermentation generally brought about by the introduction of lactic
acid producing bacteria. When lactic acid bacteria is introduced into milk,
the bacteria feed on the lactose, or milk sugar, and break it down. In the
process lactic acid, a waste product excreted from the cell wall, is
produced. Many bacteria (good and bad) will produce lactic acid.
By the time Cleopatra actually sat in that bath of asses' milk, it might
well have been teeming with bacteria busy producing lactic acid, leading her
to be one of the earliest of women to take advantage of AHA's. <g
Jen
(resident goat herd and small time cheese producer)

cosmetic-type product) what are the ingredient and labeling
requirements/restrictions?
If I were to do that, I would use ingredient that are Generally Regarded as Safe
(GRAS).
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=18\
4
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=17\
2
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=18\
1
A cosmetic is defined as:
(1) articles intended to be rubbed, poured, sprinkled, or sprayed on, introduced
into, or otherwise applied to the human body or any part thereof for cleansing,
beautifying,
promoting attractiveness, or altering the appearance, and
(2) articles intended for use as a component of any such articles; except that
such term shall not include soap.
I wouldn't call the product(s) foods.
Maurice

(I don't recall this being discussed, but if I missed it let me know and I'll
search more carefully)
If I want to promote and sell an "edible massage oil" (or other "edible"
cosmetic-type product) what are the ingredient and labeling
requirements/restrictions?
Is an edible cosmetic considered a food?
Marie Gale
Chandler's Soaps
www.chandlerssoaps.com

Yoki, my understanding is the natural lactic acid - which is why milk was
used originally - is found in the fat. Which would explain why non-fat milk
powders won't give the same benefits. There may be other explanations.
Jan Flood oakridge@...
www.oakridgefarm.com

Hmmm, so do you know about the mango butter? Mine smelled kind of
funny when I bought it (not like the shea at all)...
Sort of like a synthetic, kind of chemical smell (sorry, best
description I could think of!) and it still smells like that now -
not more intense, or anything.
Does the mango b naturally have a stronger smell than shea, or was
mine bad when I bought it, and therefore still bad now?
Rachel

Can anyone help me here? I want to know just what benefits the milk fat has in
milk baths. I want to think that they impart something, that is why it is touted
as being so beneficial. Would it make a difference if one used non fat milk
powder?
Yoki
I cried unto the Lord with my voice, and He heard me from His holy hill.
Selah

In a message dated 1/30/03 7:40:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
AngiesHerbarie@... writes:
or speller, either LOL!
The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care
Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality
at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

Hi All,
As a follow-up to the discussion yesterday around stearic acid, HLB, ewax,
etc., I decided to take a quick minute (that's all I have) and try it out for
myself. Here is what I came up with and hopefully my math is correct. I did
it by hand, didn't re-check my math, and I am not the best mathematician in
the world ;)
I decided to use my standard, basic polawax formula and compare it to one
that substitutes stearic acid for a portion of the polawax.
Here is the original:
polawax 5%
jojoba 3%
shea 2%
glycerin 2%
water 88%
I am assuming the polawax is 70% cetearyl alcohol and 30% polysorbate 80. I
am assuming the required HLB for shea is 8 and the required HLB for jojoba is
7. I am also assuming the required HLB for stearic is 15.
For this formula I came up with a total of 8.5% oils and a required HLB of
10.75. Assuming the emulsifier is polysorbate 80, I guess the HLB is 15.
Next, I used this one:
polawax 2%
stearic acid 3%
jojoba oil 3%
shea 2%
glycerin 2%
water 88%
I came up with a total of 9.4% oils with a required HLB of 9.3. I assume the
emulsifier HLB is 15.
So, if I did my math correctly, it looks like the stearic only increases the
required HLB of the lipid portion of the formula. I suppose this makes it a
closer match with the emulsifier HLB of 15?? Last year Dave tried to help me
understand HLB and I took a look back at my notes and he actually suggested
what now makes perfect sense to me. Add glyceryl stearate or some other low
HLB emulsifier to the mix....about 1.5%....then the HLB will balance out
almost perfectly.
Now, for the "feel" part of things. The formula with the stearic acid does
not have as much "glide" as the one more polawax. It also has a "stickier"
type feel and even feels a little "waxier"...this is a surprise, since I
fully expected to find more "cushion" or emolliency as has been described to
me. Also, the formula with the stearic was much more runny than the one with
all polawax??? This would be more like a lotion consistency, whereas the one
with all polawax has a cream-like consistency. So, I don't know. It still
doesn't add up for me. Maybe my math is incorrect, as well as, my logic ;)
I will still play with the stearic acid some more to see what I can see, but
I am at this point not convinced that it offers any improvement to this sort
of polawax formula.
I'm offering this for comments and thoughts (and corrections if I did it
incorrectly). My "playtime" is gone for this morning though, hope yall have
a good day!
Angie
The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care
Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality
at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

The Lanolin should last for a long time. I don't know about Mango Butter but if
it's anything like Shea Butter, from what I've seen, it will begin to go rancid
in 6 to 8 months.

Ajinomoto <http://www.ajichem.com
never worked with any of their surfactants because of cost.
I'd try Crothix or Natrosol 250 HHR. You could always contact Ajinomoto for
suggestions.
Are you buying your Ajinomoto raw materials directly from Ajinomoto or are the
available online?
Maurice

Good Morning,
I'm currently playing with Ajinomoto's Amisoft surfactants. I've noticed alot of
my customers (despite my giving them information to the contrary) believe that
Laureth Sulfates and Betaines are bad and do not want to use them. So, I have
some samples from Ajinomoto that I want to formulate liquid soaps, shampoos,
shower gels, etc.. I've had much success using other Ajinomoto's products such
as Eldew, Ajidew and Prodews so I'm sure once I figure out my problem I'll be
very happy! Anyway, my problem is, what is the best way to thicken formulations
using the Amisofts? I've listed the ones I have on hand below. Is Carbomer/TEA
good or Natrosol better? Or with these surfactants, is it a matter of what I
want my end result to be? I do like the foaming capabilities with these and the
fact they are all basically low irritation.
Thanks!
Andrea Crawford
Amisoft CS-22 (Sodium Cocoyl Glutamate)
Amisoft CT-12/CT-12S (TEA Cocoyl Glutamate)
Amisoft GS-11 (Sodium Hydrogenated Tallow Glutamate (and) Sodium Cocoyl
Glutamate)
Amisoft HS-11P (Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate)
Amisoft LS-11 (Sodium Lauroyl Glutamate)
Amisoft CS-11 (Sodium Cocoyl Glutamate)
Amisoft MS-11 (Sodium Myristoyl Glutamate)
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Hello,
Does any one know what the shelf lives of the ingredients below?
anhydrous lanolin
mango butter
Thanks,
Racehl

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Hi,
As usual the listowner and moderators are not not responsible for the
outcome of any transactions from this ad.
1. Kaolin clay - $3 a pound. This white clay is very mild. Perfect for
dry skin masks, and body powders. These clays are in stock and ready to
ship.
2. Bentonite - $3 a pound. The most absorbent of clays. Ideal for oily
skin face masks to draw out impurities. Add to shaving soaps for superior
"slip".
3. Apricot Kernel Meal - $4.00 a pound. This is a special apricot kernel
meal ground very fine and large chunks sifted out just for us soapmakers. I
use this in my mechanic's hand soap and gardener's soap and it gets rave
reviews. NOT food grade!
4. Medium Solar Salt - $4 for TWO pounds. This very white salt has been
washed and air dried near San Francisco Bay by Morton. This is the salt I
use for bath salts. It is NOT the stuff you put in your water softener.
There is an extra charge for shipping via USPS Priority, Parcel Post or Fed
Ex Ground. If you would like to order please email me at
soaplady(at)sbcglobal.net with your complete address and quantity of each
product desired and I will send you a total.
I take PayPal not funded by a credit card and USPS Money Orders.
Thanks, Sherry Brown
Having a Soapy Day!
Martinez CA 94553
Take a look at the only white cardboard soap displays on the internet:

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offered
for sale on the CosmeticInfo list unless otherwise stated. ALL
correspondence about any ad shall be done off list to the contact
supplied
by the advertiser.

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association with any product-whether tangible or intangible-that is
offered
for sale on the CosmeticInfo list unless otherwise stated. ALL
correspondence
about any ad shall be done off list to the contact supplied by the
advertiser.
The Soap Goat Soap Shop
http://www.thesoapgoat.com
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Contrary to what Snowdrift Farms says
http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/preservatives.html
Uniphen P-23 is "also known as Phenonip". This is not true.
The INCI name for Phenonip is Phenoxyethanol (and) Methylparaben (and)
Ethylparaben (and) Butylparaben (and) Propylparaben (and) Isobutylparaben.
The INCI name for Uniphen P-23 is Phenoxyethanol (and) Methylparaben (and)
Butylparaben (and) Ethylparaben (and) Propylparaben.
Maurice

Thanks again for answering and for the links. I'd searched the Cosmetic ones
only until I got frustrated and lost, but will go back with a Liquid Germall
education as a goal :)
- Katie

Please answer my posts regarding preservation, I've posted twice.
Aloe vera juice sold for consumption requires refrigeration upon opening. In
order to preserve it so allow it to sit out on anyone's bathroom counter in a
spray bottle, I need help - and, from what I'm gleaning, phenopip is for
oils, not for "water," let alone a botanical water such as this.
PLEASE tell me what preservatives to select from and where I can find
appropriate usage rates, I'm begging!
- Katie

Glycol Stearate is sometimes called Ethylene Glycol Monostearate or EGMS. The
HLB of Glycol Stearate is 2. Personally, I haven't seen Glycol Stearate used as
an
emulsifier. Glycol Stearate is used to create pearlized shampoos.
Maurice

Jules and Angie,
Span and Arlacel are the same items but Spans are food grade. Tweens are
the ethoxylated analogs of the Arlacels/Spans of the same suffix number.
The 20 series are laurates, the 40 series are palmitate, 60 is stearate
and 80 is oleate. If the Tween ends in zero then it is the 20-mole
ethoxylate of the sorbitan ester that is the root for the Tween. For
instance Tween 20 is called Polysorbate 20 but it is also called POE-20
Sorbitan Laurate.
I hope this helps clear up any confusion about Arlacel, Span and Tween.
On another note I think it needs to be said that the HLB system is not
an absolute. Emulsions are still at least 25% art. The HLB system goes a
long way to explaining some things in the science of emulsions based on
using ethoxylated nonionic emulsifiers.
Angie asked about why someone would add stearic acid to an emulsion
containing 'E-Wax'. Stearic acid is often used in emulsion to add
'cushion' to the product in application. Another post questioned the
required HLB of stearic acid and why it is called an emulsifier. Stearic
acid like most fatty acids can be easily emulsified particularly if you
neutralize the carboxylic acid group on the alkyl root. This forms the
soap that is an emulsifier. With soap emulsifiers you always have an
excess of fatty acid and that fatty acid is an emollient like any other
ester might be in your emulsion. Stearic acid is just another of the
9000 ingredients available to use in personal care products and can be
used in many ways.
Kevin Young
KY Labs
Innovators of Fine Personal Products
www.kylabs.com

Pam, I found that list I was talking about! I found a
copy on the laptop when I was putting in teaching aids
for my 9 y/o. So if you want the list I can send it to
you with the soap names of the soap it is! If anyone
else wants it also let me know and I will send privately
so as to not clog this list with out dated threads on off
topic subjects.
Dee
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/HotSoapEtc
http://www.hpsoapbook.com

not sure where you're writing from, but I'm assuming the US.
Voyageur Soap & Candle in Surrey BC has them for $0.59 Canadian (at
the 7 dozen price, so you might be able to get them even cheaper if
you're buying 200), which works out to about $0.40 with the current
exchange rate.
not sure if shipping would be substantially increased enough to kill
the discount or not, but I do know quite a few Americans who are
ordering from Canadian companies right now to take advantage of the
exchange rate.
www.voyageursoapandcandle.com if you're interested...

i appologize in advance for any cross posting.
I am in need of 4 oz Cosmo Oval plastic bottles with black disc closure. The
best price I have found is $0.47 which includes the lid. Does anyone know of a
better price?
I am looking at about 100 to 200 pieces.
Thank you in advance for your time and effort.
Plantgarden

Angie - did you get an answer yet on what "Tween" and "Span" were?
If I recall correctly, Tween is Polysorbate (i.e. Tween 80 would be
Polysorbate 80) and Span 80 is Sorbitan Monoleate. I'm not sure, but
I have a feeling that the name for the Span products changes a little
with the change in number...at least that's why my failing memory is
telling me...
Jules/Vancouver BC (who once again should be doing a management
auditing assignment instead of reading CosmeticInfo...)

Hi Angie,
Up until just recenty I only did o/w emulsions for my creams (starting with
beeswax/borax and graduating to GMS SE). Recently I made some lotions using
e-wax and stearic acid was recommended. The rationale, I believe, is to
make the lotion "thicker" without having the additional "drag" of upping the
e-wax for a thicker emulsion. I'm not sure if the "thicker" part comes from
some actual change in the emulsion, or if it's just from the stearic being
relatively hard at room temp and "hardening" the lotion in the same manner
that using butters would.
Marie
Marie Gale
Chandler's Soaps
www.chandlerssoaps.com

<<<<<<I'm soooo not good at AOL:)) Do I have to
start a brank new message in order not to send the
remnants of the one I"m responding to? Hep:)?
You should be able to highlight what you do NOT
want (on your reply email that shows it all) and
then click on delete to not send what you highlighted.
Or, when you get used to AOL, go up where your settings
are and reset it to NOT copy over the email you are
responding to, then you can highlight, copy and paste
only the few lines you are responding to. =)
Dee
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/HotSoapEtc
http://www.hpsoapbook.com

Hi All,
I had a few minutes today to play a little with HLB in a simple cream
formula. Maurice, I took a look at the formula you shared in December and
made up my own variation. I decided to make a basic, bare-bones formula just
to see how it would work. Here's what I did:
Jojoba Oil 10%
Cetyl Alcohol 2%
Stearic Acid 2%
Polysorbate 20 1.5%
Glyceryl Stearate2%
Water 82.5%
The emulsion seems stable and feels pretty good...I would add other
ingredients of course to spice it up a bit, but like to start out with a
basic formula. With all the talk around HLB, this is really the first time I
have had the time to put it together....does it seem ok? I am still
wondering about stearic acid and why is it referred to as a low HLB
emulsifier? I counted it in with the required HLB of 15. I obviously did not
add triethanolamine to make TEA Stearate, but used the stearic acid to build
body and increase stability---is my rationale correct?
Another thing, PLEASE someone answer this question...why would anyone add
stearic acid to a formula with ewax? This is a common practice with home
crafters and for the life of me, I just don't understand it. Now, if they
were to add glyceryl stearate or some other low HLB emulsifier, I would
understand. Unless the idea is to try to increase the required HLB of the
lipids to be in a better balance of the ewax---which I assume to be around
15. But this still seems a tad backwards to me??? Or am I just really
missing some important point?
Your comments and thoughts are appreciated.
Angie
The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care
Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality
at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

<<<<It keeps almost indefinitely as long as it has not been refined. In its
unrefined state, it does go grainy, and
is a brown colour - also has a sulphuric smell.
Mary, I have never purchased or used Neem, but had
occasion to see and smell it once. It was dark and
to me smelled like rotten nuts.. = P
From what you have just said it sounds like perhaps
this was unrefined, but can you elaborate more on it
is was "good". Also, if refined, what does neem look
and smell like? I was under the impression that it
smelled awful period, by what everyone who had tried
it said which brings up the question mark of how can
one tell when Neem is no longer usuable? Not planning
to ever buy it, I am satisfied with Emu, but curious.
Dee
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/HotSoapEtc
http://www.hpsoapbook.com

Hi Fran,
It keeps almost indefinitely as long as it has not been refined. In its
unrefined state, it does go grainy, and is a brown colour - also has a
sulphuric smell.
Mary
Well, Naturally
http://www.wellnaturally.com
http://www.wellnaturally.ca

Has anyone ever used Natrasorb it's suppose to that the greasyness out of
lotions?
Also at what point do you add it?
Thanks,
Fran

If looking for used books, try abe books -
http://www.abebooks.co.uk
or
http://www.abebooks.com
They link small booksellers all over the world in one giant database and will
forward your order and payment. So you are supporting the 'little' booksellers
threatened by the big giants, esp. internet ones, but are also tapping into the
chance finds in small used bookstores all over the planet. Good for you, good
for them. BRILLIANT for out of print and highly obscure books. The out-of-print
academic books i've bought from Iowa or Oklahoma or India, all from my home in
London...!!!
A used copy of Harry's C., 6th edition vol 1 is on sale at an antiquarian
booksellers at the Netherlands (£22.55 or $36.90, plus postage to whereever you
are.) Do a search on one of the two above (same database - prices quoted in
different currencies, UK or US). Meanwhile, there are 27 volumes of Poucher from
all sorts of dates and editions all over the place!
Hope that helps?
Gwen in London

Marie,
I purchased a used edition of Harry's Cosmeticology, Sixth Edition (pub.
1973) for $35.00 last year through Amazon. While I'd love to have the
newest (8th) edition, it's pretty spendy (ISBN 0820603724 $275.00). The
ISBN for the edition I have is ISBN 024944075X There is one on there now
for $99.95. If you check "All Editions" you'll see that it is the only used
one there at the moment.
Even the 30 year old book I have is a wonderful reference.
HTH,
Jen

to OTC claims: minimizes the look of stretch marks, minimizes the look of
wrinkles or scars,
deodorizing.
IMO, that is not a drug statement. I would change "look" to appearance:
"minimizes the appearance of stretch marks" and/or "minimizes the appearance of
wrinkles or scars"
Deodorants that mask odor with a fragrance are not drugs.
Maurice

Pretty sure it's on Amazon.com Marie, I looked it up once, price is $275.
I've been trying to get it through an inter-library loan, even an older
copy -- but of the 13 available, the closest one is in Chicago and they
don't seem interested in sending it down to the Ozarks. :)
I also put a special order in at Barnes & Noble, they are usually more than
happy to order it without obligation to purchase, but this wasn't one they
wanted to chance. My next idea is the university library.
Jan Flood oakridge@...

I was wondering if any of the following crosses over from being cosmetic claims
to OTC claims: minimizes the look of stretch marks, minimizes the look of
wrinkles or scars, deodorizing.
Thanks!
Andrea Crawford
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 1/21/2003

Jules wrote
packets to keep it preservative free, but you'd have to include a BIG
warning saying that it had to be used immediately, etc.
Jules, were you a basketball player at one time cause that Comment: "All
Natural or Die Crowd" was quite a Slam-Dunk !!!!!! Grin!
Well I have used all natural products on myself for 50 years and I Ain't
Dead Yet!
And as far as I know, no one has died from using Audreys or Burts Bees
Products either !! Big Grin!
However, due to safety reasons, I DO sell products using a synthetic
preservative with the least allergic effects, Germall Plus, and call it 99%
natural.......
Sherry

Would someone on digest be willing to send me digest 1000, for some
reason my computer ate it.
ddyson@...
Thanks,
Deb

I think this is what Dave was talking about:
http://pharmacos.eudra.org/F3/inci/index.htm
You have a misunderstanding of the regulations.
Maurice

I believe that this scientist is talking, or thinking, about acrylamide.
Here's a link to Sepigel 305 literature.
http://www.convergentcosmetics.com/downloads/Sepigel%20305.pdf
It contains plenty of information, even some safety information.
Maurice

Water is the big culprit in causing bacterial growth. The issue with a
product you are selling is what may happen to it after the customer has
it. If they are dipping wet hands into a jar to scoop out the cleanser,
they are introducing bacteria into the product. And then they are
probably storing it in a warm, humid bathroom. Before long it could
easily grow legs and walk away in that atmosphere. I started using
liquipar (oil soluable preservative) at 1% in my scrubs after having a
customer tell me that she had purchased a jar a year earlier and hadn't
used it up yet. It made me realize that we are all potentially liable
for a product's safety even after it leaves our hands. Sure if anything
came up, you could claim that the product was pure when it left you, but
who wants to get into that situation.
Joanne

What is the url for the online EU INCI Inventory for UK? If I understand you
correctly, I can use that and avoid buying the $195 CTFA Ingredient
Dictionary right? That would be very cool!
Jody

I pass this on for evaluation as someone was mentioning how nice it would be
to have worldwide standards ... well this isn't ww standards but it is acess
to the pertinent regs. I have no knowledge of it's standards or acceptance
but it is put together by the folks who manage Cosmoprof so that's a baseline
level of qualification anyway. Below is the text of what I received this
morning.
Jody
***************************************************************
Looking for information on
cosmetic regulations?
***************************************************************
The BEAUTY REGULATIONS DATABASE, is an easy to use compendium on
cosmetic regulations in 50 countries, constantly updated and featuring:
- detailed information on product specifications (definition, microbiology,
GMP, ingredients, etc.)
- marketing requirements,
- labelling and advertising rules,
- claims and advertising requirements,
- packaging and environmental regulations
- useful addresses
Beauty-On-Line.com invites you to join the BEAUTY BUSINESS CLUB, the
innovative B2B tool devoted to the cosmetics industry.
For 240 euros per year you will enjoy an unlimited access to our regulatory
services,
Plus:
- the BEAUTY BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES service, the leading source for
buying/importing, selling/exporting, manufacturing licensing, patenting,
contract manufacturing within the Beauty industry, currently featuring more
than 2300 business offers/requests.
- free entry to Cosmoprof tradeshows worldwide,
- Cosmoprof show and beauty newsletters.
Register now and become a club member:
http://www.beauty-on-line.com/bbc/02-00.asp
Beauty-On-Line.com is provided by SoGeCos
in cooperation with COSMOPROF

I received this note from a customer tonight and I had not heard this. Is
there any truth to this?
<snip
I wanted to talk with you about one of the ingredients in the Cream Maker,
Polyacrylamide, which is the first ingredient listed on the label. I ran the
product by a friend's husband, a scientist who runs a lab at Ohio State
University. (I had made some cream for my friend.) He became very upset to
learn that he and his wife had been using this product. He claims this
substance is used to make gels to separate proteins, and that it is a known
neurotoxin! He's sending me the MSDS sheet on this chemical. However, I
would like to know what information you have on the product. I'm concerned
about it.
Thank you.
(name withheld)
<snip
So what do you think? I'm concerned that she believes this.
Susan
http://oregontrailsoaps.com
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It might and it might not. I have no idea. You could try it and see what
happens.
But let's suppose that formula is just perfect. This is good. But have you
learned anything?
You should visit the Croda USA website
http://www.crodausa.com/
and search the Croda online formulary for Incroquat Behenyl TMS. When I did
that this morning there were 43 emulsions that used Incroquat Benhenyl TMS.
I'm going to give you a head start. I made up this formula this morning:
Water = 79%
Glycerin = 2%
Polysorbate 20 = 4.5%
Conditioning Emulsifier = 4%
Soybean Oil = 10%
Liquid Germall Plus = 0.5%
This will give you a thin lotion with mediocre feel. If I were to do it again,
I would try:
reducing or remove the Polysorbate 20
add more soybean oil (you did say what your oils were)
try adding a little stearic acid
But try to make your changes one at a time. That way you can learn the benefits
of each ingredient.
If you plan on selling any creams or lotions into the "natural" marketplace, you
may want to reconsider using Sepigel 305 because of it's INCI name:
Polyacrylamide (and)
C13-14 Isoparaffin (and) Laureth-7.
Maurice

I need your help -
I need to make a witch hazel and aloe juice blend for a body spray
that can remain unrefrigerated. I've read some interesting
information about the preservatives in the files but, being totally
unscientific, cannot make enough sense of it. It was suggested to me
to ask whether, for the use I want, if these mixes should be alright
as they are or if I need to add one of the germabens or phenopip (and
how much)?
I plan to mix 3 versions to try ...
first 75% witch hazel, 25% aloe juice
second 50% of each
third 25% witch hazel, 75% aloe juice
The aloe juice I have is
Aloe Vera Gel
Citric Acid
Sodium Benzoate (A Food Preservative at 1/10 of 1%)
and the witch hazel is
Witch Hazel 86%
Alcohol 14% by volume
Thanks. Katie

Classic available to us
I second that Angie! Also for the Primary Ingredients download Maurice
posted recently. I'm so appreciative of the knowledge our chemists so
generously share with us. Sometimes, it's just a matter of Kevin or
Maurice pointing me in the right direction or giving me the right question
to ask - then I can do the legwork on my own.
For those of you who were not able to get the HLB download, there is good
information available on the internet....just put HLB in a search engine -
or Hydrophile-Lipophile Balance System.
If any of you are using Meadowfoam Seed Oil, there has not been an HLB value
determined...however the properties are similar to Olive Oil, so using a 7
works for me.
Jan Flood oakridge@...

Hi All,
First off I want to say thanks to Dave and Maurice for making the HLB Classic
available to us. I have just now actually had a chance to read it. I'm
finally at a point where I can play with HLB and look at some different
emulsification options. The HLB Classic takes a very common-sense approach
and is very user-friendly and easy to understand for the most part. A couple
of things though. I am confused about why stearic acid is referred to as an
emulsifier? In the HLB classic, stearic acid is referred to as a low HLB
emulsifier. My understanding is that it is a fatty acid and has a required
HLB of 15?? I can see that it is a stabilizer, but don't see it as an
emulsifier. I find this confusing and wonder what I am missing. Can anyone
offer any clarification?
The other thing that I find a little annoying is the reference to Tween 80
and Span 80. I know these are common terms to use within the industry and I
am sure most people know exactly what is being discussed, but I quite
honestly can't remember exactly which chemicals they are describing.
Unfortunately I can't find any definitions other than they are the oleates
and the 60's are the stearates?? I am distracted from his excellent
explanation by trying to define these terms. It would be helpful if there
was some sort of chart of definitions---if it is there, I just don't see it.
So, now I see that a combination of Tween and Span emulsifiers is
recommended, but can't identify the chemicals. Now, I'm sure you chemists
could direct me to some definitions :)
So, other than these two comments, I find the HLB Classic very good and very
helpful. It actually does confirm and elaborate on what Dave and Maurice
have already provided.
Another thought of something that may be helpful to folks; it certainly has
been helpful to me. Harry's Cosmeticology. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten
around to buying the book...it is a little expensive. But someone faxed me
Chapter 10 on Cosmetic Emulsification last year. It does a fabulous job of
explaining the different phases and types of emulsions, PIT, effects of
varying types of agitation. I only have the hard copy, but I thought that
perhaps one of our very smart and kind chemists could somehow make this
chapter available in our files section. Whadayathink?
Thanks,
Angie
The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care
Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality
at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

Well, I know _I_ have a peculiar mind set...that's scarcely a secret
around here! *snicker*
Like I keep saying, I got into this stuff for the chemistry - I
wanted to be a mad scientist when I grew up...must be a lab coat
fetish or something...
*grin*
Jules

<<<<shouldn't have been blue tansy...tanecetuum annuum.... it's a wonderful
oil... great anti-inflamatory and smells yummy...now...
common tansy...tanecetuum vulgaris (or is it officianalis?)...that's
a different situation all together...wondering what saponification
would do to that glorious cobalt color.... and know what I need to
make a test batch of
Then that was not it. I guess the example will have to
go nameless as a general happening. Thanks for correcting
my poor recall as not blue tansy, Marge. = )
Dee
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/HotSoapEtc
http://www.hpsoapbook.com

COOL! Whether I need to know that or not, it sounds like it'd be fun
to test it...
I'm such a geek...*lol*
Jules

In a message dated 1/27/03 8:01:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,
massame@... writes:
Hi Denise,
Try Sherri at OSHUN <A HREF="www.oshun.ca"
Angie
The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care
Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality
at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

Hi!
I usually make more of a butter than a cream, and when I do it this way, I like
to use both Sepigel and Beeswax. I want to try a cream without the beeswax.
I've been reading through the archives, and I don't want to use just E-wax. Can
I ask you guys to give me some advice? First of all, what percentage of
emulsifiers is good in a cream? Here is what I have available:
Sepigel 305
Conditioning E-wax (Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol)
E-Wax
Stearic Acid
Polysorbate 20
I was going to do something like this:
Sepigel 305 - 4%
Cond E-Wax - 3%
Stearic - 2%
Water - 70%
Hydro Wheat - 2%
Glycerin - 2%
Oils - 17%
Preservative & FO
Do you think something like this would turn out? Thank you for any advice you
can give me!
~Patti

RE: Spores in clay......Kevin
I was surprised to hear about spores in clay, since I ASSUMED that the
Suppliers were sending "spore free clay".
QUESTION is.... Are you saying that suppliers do not send pore free clay?
Or that spores can develop later, even in clay that is spore free from the
supplier ????
When I make up an order for a face mask, I use botanical water and add
Germall Plus to that, then add the water to the clays I use from reputable
suppliers. So, Is this enough preservative, or is there a special clay
preservative that should be used?
Sherry

...anyone know where I can find some?
~Denise~

shouldn't have been blue tansy...tanecetuum annuum.... it's a wonderful
oil... great anti-inflamatory and smells yummy...
now... common tansy...tanecetuum vulgaris (or is it
officianalis?)...that's a different situation all together...
wondering what saponification would do to that glorious cobalt
color.... and know what I need to make a test batch of!
Your source for superb Essential Oils, Aromatherapy
Accessories, Information, Books and more!
Visit us at: <http://www.naturesgift.com

You can purchase the menthol crystals along with other herbs at
www.glenbrookfarm.com, and Lucinda also sends a MSDA sheet with each order.
Sherry

Hi Dee
You do get used to it, at first it sounds complicated but you do get the
hang of it just like I'm trying to get used to the US laws:-)
The only thing is that we don't have to pay for our inventory INCI listings.
All the INCI references are on the EU site. There is a huge inventory there
and everything is listed, well almost everything, if there is no INCI we use
the common name. In the US you seem to have 9 different volumes to wade
through ( or at least volume 6.7.8.and 9 as you will probably be using the
recent ones ) whereas we have only one which is updated now and again and
it's all online free of charge:-)) Gosh those CFTA books are expensive, even
the buyers guide is !!
Pam
Yes, it is different there. I suppose one would get used to it but
you are correct. It would be much easier to have a world wide way of
doing things. What a pain this must be for you tracking it all down.
Dee

JB,
In many cases it is easier to all the water to the oil and it often
gives an emulsion with improved stability since the emulsion must invert
from W/O to O/W in the finished form. The original thinking is that by
adding the oils to the water then you have the ability to disperse the
oils into the water but with the correct combination of emulsifiers the
emulsion will form in the desired phase orientation regardless of the
process used to make the emulsion.
When an emulsion inverts you will get a finer particle size without the
homogenization.
Kevin Young
KY Labs
Innovators of Fine Personal Products
www.kylabs.com

Oops - mea culpa, Angie. I had it in my head that yours contained
citric acid, don't know why! Probably cuz I knew it didn't have
borax in it...*lol*
Jules

Dear Members,
I am little confused regarding emulsification of oil and water.
I know all the creams and lotions are either oil in water emulsion or
water in oil emulsion.The standard procedure for making lotion or
cream says oil phase is added into the waterphase,mixed with
homogeniser and gradually cooled.
What is the reason for adding oil phase into the waterphase phase?
and not vice versa ,i.e water phase into oilphase?
Adding water phase into oil phase makes any difference to product
quality,look,sheen or may not be stable?Any scientic reason for this
standard procedure?
Also if the oil phase is more than waterphase then also we have to
follow the same procedure,i.e oil phase is to be added to water phase?
Thanks & Regards
jbbhat

<<< Dee, John passed away suddenly several months ago.
He will no longer be answering questions.
Oh, my goodness. I had not heard. =(
Thanks, Marge.
Dee
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/HotSoapEtc
http://www.hpsoapbook.com

Cathy,
Thanks for the process - I will give it whirl - why I am so afraid of using
the carbomers is a mystery.
Since I have been requested to make a foot cream for a marathon to be held
in my home town I was thinking of using my tried and true formula. I really
want to work with the carbomber and package in a frosted malibu with the
auqa color from Jen.
The package and color send the cooling messsage I was determined to have for
folks with tired feet.
I replied privately to the other gals inquiry on where to find menthol
crystals
Was not sure of list etiquette
Here goes hope it's OK
www.libertynatural.com $50 min order
www.reinbath.com no min that I recall Anch is a doll
Bobbi Guerra
The Purple Sage
Fine Hand Made Bath & Body Products
www.thepurplesage.com - Coming Soon!

Answered Privately

Can you direct me to an directions for "CP liquid soap"?
Marie Gale
Chandler's Soaps
www.chandlerssoaps.com

The INCI name in the US is Beta-Carotene.
Maurice

Can anyone tell me please if there is an US INCI for BETA-CAROTENE.?
Thanks in advance
Pam

Thanks Jules and Angie!
I just checked my recipe and it does call for a small amount of Borax. I have a
week off this coming week, and I think I'll try it again (just one last time!)
and try it with some Citric Acid and then try adding some Crothix.
If this time doesn't work I might try a CP recipe as liquid soap. If that
doesn't work, then it's Surfactants all the way baby!
~Patti
Soap Dance
http://www.SoapDance.com/
Soap, Etcetera

Sheila,
Stearic acid is the fatty acid while stearic acid MEA is a super amide
that may be used in soaps, shampoos and cleaners as a foam booster.
Super amides are made by reacting the fatty acid with ethanolamine on a
1:1 molar basis with a loss of a molecule of water in the reaction. This
is a condensation reaction. Note that I also said that you use
ethanolamine and not triethanolamine. Ethanolamine is the primary amine
while TEA is a tertiary amine. This means that only one of the three
reactive sites in ammonia has been substituted with ethanol in
ethanolamine and that all tree sites have been substituted in TEA.
Kevin Young
KY Labs
Innovators of Fine Personal Products
www.kylabs.com

Merin,
The name will depend on the exact material that you are using. Vitamin A
is Retinol however if you are using Vitamin A palmitate then this is
Retinyl Palmitate. Retinyl palmitate is also called Vitamin A oil
incorrectly.
Kevin Young
KY Labs
Innovators of Fine Personal Products
www.kylabs.com

In a message dated 1/26/03 1:15:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
garden_goddess@... writes:
Hi Jules and All,
I am constantly asked about how liquid soap can be thickened and my response
is that my customers have reported some good results using crothix and some
are not good. I don't use liquid soap or make it or like it and I am always
happy to share the merits of the "mild" surfactants, but that's another story
;)
Several years ago, when I was considering liquid soap for a shampoo base, I
bought some from a supplier. Turns out I didn't like it at all---too
irritating---so I just put it on the back shelf in the storage closet. About
a year ago, I did try using the crothix to thicken it...and it did thicken it
beautifully. The label on this liquid soap reads: No SLS, SLES, or
alcohol--Just Pure Natural Liquid Soap. Ingredients: distilled water,
saponified palm and coconut oil, potassium sorbate, 37% active ingredients.
So, I don't know if it has any citric acid in it or not. And let me re-state
again: This is NOT a product that I sell or endorse in any way!!!! I'm just
using it as an example, my only example. The pH on this soap is 9.1. There
are alot of soapmakers out there who have tried crothix. Maybe they will
speak up to let us know if they have had good results with the crothix and
how they incorporated it into the soap...Bobbi?
Angie
The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care
Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality
at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

Hi All,
I have a safety question regarding the volatile silicone fluids. I'm not
concerned about toxicity, because there appears to be a good bit of
information to document safety in personal care applications. What I am
concerned about is storage/shipping. For example, I see from my literature
that the 245 has a flash point of 72C and the 345 has a flash point of -3C.
The 245 does not present as much of a problem as does the 345. I've now
accumulated a pretty nice sized folder on silicones and nothing is said
besides the fact that they are flammable and should be kept away from open
flame, heat and sparks. Does anyone have any information regarding special
shipping requirements on these materials when the temperatures are high?
Thanks,
Angie
The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care
Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality
at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

Dee, John passed away suddenly several months ago.
He will no longer be answering questions.

Your source for superb Essential Oils, Aromatherapy
Accessories, Information, Books and more!
Visit us at: <http://www.naturesgift.com

Hi Sherry
I have pasted some information below. It would be my understanding that if there
are now editions 7, 8, and 9 that we can use edition 9 but while it is still
under review we will not be prosecuted for using the references as stated below.
However, as Jenny asked earlier, I think I would stick to one edition rather
than mix and match.
Pam
U. S. Food and Drug Administration
Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition
Office of Cosmetics and Colors
October 1991 Hypertext updated by dms/kwg 2002-MAY-31
The currently recognized edition of the CTFA (Cosmetic, Toiletry and Fragrance
Association, Inc.) Cosmetic Ingredient Dictionary is the second edition
published in 1977. This edition is recognized only in part, i.e., not all names
listed in the second edition have been adopted.
The third edition of the CTFA Cosmetic Ingredient Dictionary published in 1982
and the Supplement published in 1985 have not yet been recognized. However, FDA
has informed the CTFA that the agency will not take regulatory action against
products labeled in accordance with these editions while their review is in
progress
Subject: Re: Which Edition to use??
Did someone answer Jenny's question about which version of CTFA Dictionaries
to use? If so I missed it, and would you post it again please, thanks in
advance.
Sherry
CTFA International Cosmetic Ingredient Dictionaries
(Editions 7, 8 & 9, according to the archives)

there are now editions 7, 8, and 9 that we can use edition 9 but while it is
still under review we will
not be prosecuted for using the references as stated below. However, as Jenny
asked earlier, I think I would stick to one edition rather than mix and match.
I don't see why you couldn't mix edition names when putting an ingredient list.
I've been known to do that. In general, I prefer the 6th & 7th edition
nomenclature.
Here are two links that touch on subject of this post:
CTFA petition regarding harmonization of ingredient labeling names and
recognition of the International Cosmetic Ingredient Dictionary Sixth Edition:
September 20, 1996
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~acrobat/cosltr06.pdf
FDA response to petition: July 7, 1997
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~acrobat/cosltr07.pdf
However, the FDA also states that the "CTFA Cosmetic Ingredient Dictionary,
Ninth Edition, (2002)" "[p]rovides a common nomenclature for use in preparing
ingredient labels
and in disclosing product trade and chemical names are cross-referenced to CTFA
adopted names."
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/industry.html
Maurice

If I am making a spray that is 60% (or maybe even more) perfumer's alcohol,
will I need a preservative? I'm not even sure yet if I'm going to add
water, but at most it would be 10% water.
Merin
http://www.goodcleansoap.com
I never fail. I succeed at finding what doesn't work. --Christopher Titus

If I recall correctly, I was using soap that I had already diluted.
I can't recall my method, but I probably melted the crothix
separately and added it to the thinned, heated soap.
My comment re citric acid was that I have heard from people that use
borax in their liquid soaps that the Crothix didn't work for them. I
had used citric acid, and it worked for me, and I believe it was
Angie who had also had success with Crothix using a soap with citric
acid in it. I made the assumption that using borax didn't lower the
pH enough to be within the range the Crothix works in. I could be
wrong, but that's my story! *lol*
Good luck - I decided that I didn't like Failor's method at all and
decided that I had better success doing CP liquid soap or using on of
Cavitch's recipes. I'd rather use surfactants though, at the end of
the day! *lol*

Is there a specific inci name for vitamin a?
Merin
http://www.goodcleansoap.com
I never fail. I succeed at finding what doesn't work. --Christopher Titus

Is there an advantage using Fatty Acid C12-18 (also called) TRC 1218
U-unsat. Coconut Oil over regular coconut oil?
Once again, my thanks for any insight,
Sheila

What's the difference between regular stearic acid and stearic acid
monoethanolamid (also known as Alkamide S-280)?
TIA,
Sheila

Re: INCI Labeling of Cosmetic Soap in US
No, Sherry, I've been patiently waiting. I think my questions about
cosmetic soap labeling got lost in the shuffle.
Jen

Did someone answer Jenny's question about which version of CTFA Dictionaries
to use? If so I missed it, and would you post it again please, thanks in
advance.
Sherry
CTFA International Cosmetic Ingredient Dictionaries
(Editions 7, 8 & 9, according to the archives)

I have a question about when to add Crothix to liquid soap. I use the paste
method - where you add the potassium hydroxide & water to the oils to make a
paste and then dilute it with more water. Would you add the Crothix when you
add the water at the end? Or maybe when you melt the oils?
I have some of the Crothix from Angie, and I would love to be able to get my
liquid soap thicker. I also think Jules was the one that suggested I could try
citric acid too. So far, I've found some fragrance oils that thicken the soap,
so I've been sticking to those.
Thanks!
~Patti

chance I will the read the
cheat book I bought to learn about her new way of life.
You'll HAVE to come over, never mind the book!!!
Would love to do that if I ever get that way. Thanks. = )
Guess you noticed that I am a sore spot in some sides....lol.
Did not include this in the last send. <G
Dee
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/HotSoapEtc
http://www.hpsoapbook.com

My dictionary describes deliquesce -- as to become liquid by absorbing moisture
from the air.
I'm not sure I understand the nature of a deliquescent oil then.
Jan Flood oakridge@...

The following links have recipes for Foot Cream......they are both from the
MMS site. I haven't tried the first recipe, but I do use the second recipe
with a couple of modifications. I add menthol crystals to my cream as well
(I think it was after reading a post from Maurice) which gives it that
little extra UMPH......
http://www.thesage.com/recipes/recipes.php3?.State=Display&id=7
http://www.thesage.com/recipes/recipes.php3?.State=Display&id=8
Hope that helps!!
Melody

WOW, Maurice!
Thanks!
Lynda
--
Lynda Sorenson
http://www.Luna-Aromatics.com

Now, Kevin- you didn't advise what preservative would be appropriate-
so this was my natural solution to solve the possible problem in another way-
though time consuming... and it creates an AWFUL smell for several hours...
Andree

I imagine I can bake the clay like I do soil to sterilize it and kill
everything...
(this can be done in the oven but I also have a kiln...)
Andree

Thank you, Dave!
But you have spiked my curiosity as to the ratio of glycerin and sugar to the
whole product that promotes or provides for bacterial growth...can you share
or tell me where to read more about this?
Andree

thanks very much for your answer, Kevin - i do appreciate it. would it be okay
if i asked you some more specific questions about this offlist? i believe
penetration is the concern i truly have for my products; not absorption or
adsorption.
~risa

What is this tingle effect? I know menthol can have a cooling effect,
but is the tingling effect differe